AFL Reserves

I posted this on SA Footy but as feared, it seems to have gone back to the same old chestnut, hopefully on here, the debate can keep a little more to the issues that I think aren't being discussed in the media and confoundly complicate all things PAFC, SANFL, SA AFL teams and the AFL. I would really value Port supporters' thoughts on this as they will probably be the most affected.


With this issue gaining another media push I feel that there are major complications and issues that need to be discussed as to how this can be handled and direct effects to clubs, AFL & SANFL. The main complications lie with the PAFC.

Scenario 1.
Power & Adelaide both have reserves teams playing in the SANFL, as a condition to this both AFL clubs have agreed not to play for Premiership points, but the SANFL keep ownership of both licenses, as a result of this the Port Magpies have given up the chance to ever win another SANFL flag and consolidate their future in the AFL.
I have only suggested this scenario as I think it will only go forward with this clause as part of it.

Scenario 2.
Both AFL clubs field reserves teams in the VFL as a deal cannot be agreed to concerning the SANFL who have since returned both licenses to the AFL or private ownership. The AFL vows to provide both clubs with extra funding to cover costs of their reserves teams. As an added clause to this the AFL demand that the PAFC do not field a team in the SANFL. Port supporters realize that they will never see their team play another SANFL game let alone win another SANFL flag.

Scenario 3.
The AFL set up a national reserves competition which both AFL clubs join. The SANFL no longer hold AFL licences in return for having seats on a newly set up Australian Rules National Governing Committee as have the WAFL. Due to funding restrictions, the PAFC have chosen in agreement with the SANFL that the best result for all is that the PAFC cut all ties with the SANFL competition and thus Port Adelaide supporters will never see the Prison Bar guernsey again.

Scenario 4.
Things remain the same with both AFL clubs having their players distributed across the SANFL.

These are obviously hypothetical, but I think some crucial issues and consequences rear up. Most that aren't beneficial to your traditional Port or SANFL supporter. To be honest, if both AFL clubs want reserves teams they will have to make some pretty big compromises, the main ones will lie with the PAFC because of their long history in the SANFL, these will not be easy and are likely to cause more division within the PAFC and their supporter base, between the PAFC & the SANFL and within the SANFL itself.

I hope this can be discussed in a positive manner.

You know my thoughts, no use repeating them on here when they are on SAFOOTY.

MightyEagles wrote:You know my thoughts, no use repeating them on here when they are on SAFOOTY.

But what if there are people on here who don't go on SAFooty anymore?

Copy / Paste them perhaps ME?

ME, if that's all you have to add then I'm not sure why you bothered. The pointlessness of me posting this here is outweighed by you comment of no further comment.
The reason why I've posted the same on here (and I think I've already explained it at the header), is that on here its moderated differently and there's a different, more thoughtful and moderate discussion, unfortunately on SA Footy it's gone into the same old diatribe concerning issues from the early 90's. Some are very valid but I think there are some really interesting outcomes concerning this that are worth debating/discussion. If you logically play out all the options for Crows and Power reserves teams in your own head the logical outcomes and complications don't fair well for the Port Magpies in the SANFL.
Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this is interesting or can see this playing out, so be it.

We covered this a fair bit in FOOT-e TIMES SA last week and will probably be the subject of my next feature article there in a couple of weeks.

But crux of my thoughts are;


League sides exist to win premierships

Reserves sides exist to develop players to a league standard


If your league competition has any value you mix the two at your peril.


Across the spectrum of AFL "surplus" players there is a large discrepancy of experience, skills and development needs. ie your new rookie listed players to your 23rd best.

If they are all in one team do you
- end up playing young kids at a standard they are not ready for
or
- have fringe players not being challenged because the games are too easy

That said if Crows or Power really think there is value is this let them play in a Reserves comp like the VFL, SANFL Reserves or a new AFL reserves comp.

Agree with most of the Phil, but the poser for me is what then happens to the Port Magpies and are they ever able to contest another SANFL flag? After just becoming "one club" do they separate again therefore having Port Power, Power Reserves god knows where, Port Magpies and Port Magpies Reserves, U18's etc.
Can't see how this can work especially for a club so cash strapped.

Well there is an AFL division and SANFL division. at the PAFC

Both divisions currently exist to win a flag but through different means


AFL through the national draft, development once on the list and coaching

SANFL through zone development, other recruiting and coaching


If all AFL surplus players play in SANFL reserves comp
- then it could be possible for that to be the Magpies team to comprise a mix of
- Power AFL surplus players
- Magpies reserves players

Now that means there would be a smaller senior list for the Magpies relative to other SANFL clubs (might say be 45 rather than the normal 55) .... would proably mean some extra player transfers out of the PAFC to others in SANFL to get an opportunity ... which would generate some extra income for PAFC.

It is an adjustment but not unreasonable compared with other options.

Costs would be slighly less than current given less players (all be it a Reserves rate) on Magpies list

As long as Magpies LEAGUE still is "exisiting to win premierships" and is not made up of surplus Power players I think it could work.

Won't happen. Power/crows will have control of their license by july.

The trade off is no reserves in the sanfl.

So Phil, do you think that the general footy public would or could accept that Port Magpies Reserves is therefore a Power/Port Magpies reserves and playing for premiership points? And then would you put forward that Adelaide field a Reserves team as a stand alone team in the SANFL Reserves?
Personally I think both AFL clubs would want more competition for their players than just SANFL Reserves. But I think that if it's going to be the SANFL it'll have to be the Reserves.
The other thing that will come into this is, as mentioned above, the two AFL licenses and, the elephant in the room, one Senor Demitriou and just how much say they have in the future of Port Power and their costs structure.

No one in the SANFL will give a fig about changes at SANFL reserves level as long as they can still use it develop furture SANFL league players and the SANFL league comp is not compromised

The downside for mine is all AFL clubs as ALLl their surplus players are put into one side at one level regardless of skill and experience.

Indeed SANFL clubs will have some advantage as they will no longer have to deal with extra insertion / removal of AFL players at league level often at late notice.

Is the argument for who holds the licences a necessary part of these scenarios. IE Can they happen irrespective of who holds the licences?

A Crows / Port reserves team seems to me to be something driven by the afl.

I can live with options 2 and 4. But I think if the afl were to set up a national reserves outfit as in option 3, they would do it using the VFL anyway.

Under any scenario, I would rather see the prison bars in the sanfl remain. But now that they are 'one club', in the grander necessity of things if an afl reserves came to pass, the Magpies leaving the sanfl would be the first thing to be enslaved to such an idea.

One thing I cannot live with is anything close to resembling option 1, either with or without Crows / Port playing for points. I never want to see the fruit tingle colours or Black, White and Teal grace a sanfl playing arena.

It worries me not one bit if we never see the afl players in the sanfl. Maybe the further away from the afl and all its compromises we get the better.

How and why any of this would affect sanfl financial situation is very hard to properly gauge with so many permutations in the above scenarios that are possible.

However, I think you can see evidence of sanfl clubs (and yes even the Blues) trying to shore up their coffers from revenue streams outside the afl dividend and even outside pokie revenue too for that matter.

A good debate Cutter!

Chambo, the licences don't really play a part but will probably be used as a trade off in whatever decision is made. This whole thing smacks of typical knee jerk AFL mentality, ie recent AFL Premiers have their stand alone reserves teams, therefore the rest of the comp assume that it's what is needed to remain competitive. It wasn't so long ago that everyone was going for fast athletic type players with dubious skills, now look at it, it's the complete opposite. It wasn't so long ago that mature age players that hadn't been drafted yet were too old at 24/25 years of age to be given a go and just look at those that have been given a go recently.
If this reserves thing goes ahead I can see in ten years time them rethinking that the old model was pretty good. No one can tell methat the recent issues in the VFL concerning AFL affiliates has been good for that comp.

If the Cows and the Smears want AFL reserves teams, then I feel that they should play in the SANFL Reserves competition.

Port's open intention as stated by Fos Williams when the story broke that Port were going to enter the AFL, that there would be no Magpies in the SANFL and they would be moving across to the AFL in full.

The only other scenario that I can see that would enable a Magpies team to continue in the SANFL is if Port Districts or one of the other popular SAAFL sides amalgamated with the Magpies then were split away from the Power in full. Port Districts home ground could likely cater for SANFL home games with a small amount of investment.

My own take on Cutterman's 4 options:

Option 1: Absolute worst case scenario that can happen. Will completely destroy the fabric of the competition, and if it ever happened, can only see it lasting a couple of years before another solution is found, and by then the damage to the SANFL brand will be irreparable.

Option 2: While this protects the SANFL competition, will the loss of dividends from losing ownership of the 2 AFL clubs cause more long-term harm to the clubs. This option will see the end of Port Magpies, but will it also see the end of some of the other financially weak clubs. From the AFL clubs/VFL perspective, how much of a financial strain would it be on the VFL and VFL clubs to send a side interstate every week?

Option 3: IMO, the ideal solution, and the Foxtel Cup should evolve into this. There will be significant cost involved with extra players, trainers, umpires etc, but if the NRL can have a similar competition (Toyota Cup), surely the AFL can do the same with their greater resources than the NRL.

The national football committee would have to be very carefully set up (i.e. make it a truly national board with equal representation particularly from SA/WA/Victoria), and I would like it used to not only govern the rules of the game, but also there for the second tier competitions as well, making sure they remain strong.

If Port were to go from the SANFL, I would like to see a final 4 return, but played over 3 weeks (basically what we have now, just take out the QF/EF). Perhaps the premiers of the SANFL/WAFL/VFL and the NEAFL/AFLNSW/TSL could then play off in a division 1/division 2 tier-2 Champions of Australia tournament a fortnight after the respective Grand Finals, with the tier-2 Grand Finals played the week after the AFL Grand Final.

Option 4: While I like option 3, option 4 is a very close second option. To be frank, the current system, while not perfect, has worked very well for over 20 years, and as they say, 'If it aint broke, don't fix it'.

Thanks Brucetiki. I've spun those scenarios out off the top of my head, haven't discussed it with many people but I think it's something that needs discussion across all areas. I think it's a matter of time until the two licences are out if SANFL hands. I wonder if Adelaide may have a private owner of sorts.

Options 1 & 2 are not acceptable to me. Perhaps being over-dramatic, but it would spell the end of the SANFL as a viable concern. I have no wish to see 8 SANFL stuggling financially whilst the rich kids on the block use the competition for their own gain, and give nothing back. I keep asking, if they field reserves teams in the SANFL, where are the extra players going to come from?

Option 3 isn't a bad one in theory, but it would need resources and funding I can't see the SANFL being able to sustain. I could see the AFL stepping in and taking control.

Option 4, whilst not perfect, and hasn't done my club a lot of favours over the years (especially in finals), is the only way I can see the SANFL operating as a strong credible competition.

Once again we see Michelangelo Rucci, with obviously nothing better to do, returning to his obsession with this "issue" (Which seems more like a non-issue to me) that is leading his column to become increasingly irrational. Basing his latest argument on Knights and Salopek is very weak. Salopek obviously has personal issues that have nothing to do with where Power players are allocated. The proposition put forward of playing Knights in some junior game, rather than the SANFL reserves is ridiculous and reflects poorly on the Crows officials concerned. As for Rucci, his journalistic credibility is zero so far as I'm concerned. If the Crows and Power really want reserves teams that badly, there's a perfect solution just over the border in the VFL. Though heaven only knows where they'd get enough players of sufficient ability to fill complete teams every week.

Rucci needs to vary his travel pattern. Maybe next year go overseas for the winter and stay here for the summer.

Boring.

May I suggest that people actually stop buying the paper and back that up with a phone call to the Advertsiser about pathetic writing by Rucci as your reason for not buying it. If no one does thatyou'll just get the same. He is pathetic and always has a grudge to bear. He had some stupid counter years ago about some minor thing but kept going on about it. A very shallow writer who lacks knowledge.

Want it to stop ? Then you do something about it or it will not change.

The problem being the Advertosser is the only paper in town, so unless there's another mob to keep these people in check, they can print what they like...

Well they will if people still buy and don't complain. The problem isn't being a one paper city .

But the way newspapers interpret complaints is that it means the writer is being read and getting discussion going.

Flag No.9 wrote:But the way newspapers interpret complaints is that it means the writer is being read and getting discussion going.

Correct. I know this is off-topic but I stopped buying the Advertiser years ago when it suddenly occurred to me that we were getting no reporting on the actual game. All we were getting was opinion pieces from Cornes, Rucci, etc, and it wasn't telling me what I needed to know.

Years from now, researches are going to be inching through Rucci's articles and wondering what actually happened, perhaps believing that the game was run by this one man whose opinions seemed to count for so much.

Give me the old Geoff Kingston days where football journalists were usually former players who actually wrote about the game. Rucci, I don't want to know what you think, I want to know what was happening out on the field, and that's ALL I want to know. All the rest I can find via Internet and contacts.

In a remarkably restrained article in the paper today, free from opinion, speculation, pot-stirring and rumour by our favourite journalist, there was a very important quote from John Olsen that we need to dwell upon.

"We will not compromise the sanfl competition (with afl reserves teams)"
- John Olsen

Maybe we should make this comment a sticky at the top of the sanfl board, to see if this statement is honoured post-2014.

It is probably the single most important comment (to sanfl interested footy followers) I have heard from the SA Football Commission for quite a while.

Chambo Off To Work We Go wrote:"We will not compromise the sanfl competition (with afl reserves teams)"
- John Olsen

The worrying thing about that is the man used to be a politician. Whenever I hear them say anything, ny mind automatically reverts to the opposite.

No, I agree, to see that in print is rather comforting to say the least.