ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
+5
robranisgod
FOOTYfollower
Adelaide Hawk
Scrappy
Chambo Off To Work We Go
9 posters
Page 2 of 3
Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Not taking into account total (Test) career stats, but sheer batting ability - how would Barry Richards rate compared to other leading batsmen over the last 140 years?
FOOTYfollower- Join date : 2012-01-30
Posts : 311
Location : Somewhere watching the footy
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Barry Richards was selected in the second team.
So I guess you could say he was in the mix for the opening spots.
I thought I read he only played a handful of tests. Probably one of cricket's great injustices.
So I guess you could say he was in the mix for the opening spots.
I thought I read he only played a handful of tests. Probably one of cricket's great injustices.
Chambo Off To Work We Go- Join date : 2012-02-03
Posts : 3228
My club :
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
robranisgod wrote: I didn't think his keeping was ever anything special. Certainly his sloppiness behind the stumps cost Australia more than one test. The test against India 5 years ago in Adelaide 5 years ago is one the comes to mind where he missed a couple of regulation catches and Australia failed on the last day to dismiss India. He is about the cleanest hitter of the ball that I have ever seen, but I can't agree with you about his keeping, to me it was never any more than average.
His batting saved Australia on many occasions, and put Australia in commanding positions in countless tests. Yes his keeping let him down on occasions, particularly late in his career, but he is way ahead on net result IMO.
Gingernuts- Join date : 2012-02-01
Posts : 2493
Teams : Adelaide, Sth Adelaide, Langhorne Creek
My club :
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
FOOTYfollower wrote:Not taking into account total (Test) career stats, but sheer batting ability - how would Barry Richards rate compared to other leading batsmen over the last 140 years?
Barry Richards
''When no one else was a round , I would practice for hours on my own, from what Ive read something common in the childhood of cricketers, hurling a ball against a wall and batting against the rebound
My net was our garage, my bat was just 12 inches long
In retrospect this must have been extremely good conditioning for the eye and the reflexes
I used a golf ball which I threw it at the wall used really to fly at me on the bounce."
Like The Don, The Barry had similar doctrines as a kid
1970
Just how good Barry Richards would have been a a Test Cricketer is purely speculative
In 1 superb Test Series he made 508 runs @ 72.57 against Bill Lawrys Australians in South Africa
A series where an Australian cricketer claimed pre-series that Ian Chappell was the best batsman in the world
By the end of that series Barry Richards and Graham Pollock perhaps deserved that title as the planets best batsman
Was that 72.57 average inflated ?
Australian had ventured to India on the slow spinfested pitches , and then toured South Africa
It has been written that almost the entire Australian Squad was ill , tired and lethargic from the tour of India
The Australians were simply not in any condition at the start of the series
South Africa demoralised the Aussies from the start, and trounced them
For their part, the Aussies fielding was deplorable , dropping catch after catch during the series
I listened to a fair proportion of that series on the radio as a kid and would hear how good this Barry Richards was
After this series Barry Richards was never to play Test Cricket again , after a fantastic embryonic start
1966
A South African Eleven played the touring Australians on the tour of 1966-1967
Richards had advanced down the pitch and hit off spinner Tom Vievers to the extra cover boundary , and reached his first first class century b4 being bowled by Garth Mckenzie for 107
This is what Richie Benaud had to say about Barry Richards 107 run innings
'' Eleven Australian cricketers saw a new Test star born yesterday , when 21 year old Barry Richards carved a scintillating 107 off them ...
He exhibited a cast iron defence and glorious attacking strokes to all parts of the field in this two and a half hour stay."'
1970-1971
There was a consolation to Barry not adding to his 4 game Test Career
That was he came to play for South Australia in the 1970-1971 season
His love affair with Australian bowlers continued for his one off Sheffield Shield season
Barry scored a phenomenal 1538 runs @109.85 for the season, including THAT innings of 356 against West Australia in an attack that included DK Lillie
I was a teenager who caught the bus to Adelaide oval to see Barry Richards play that season, as much as I liked Ian Chappell, Barry became my favorite player that season
By averaging 100+ in a season of Australian cricket proved to the world that his 72.57 Test average was no fluke
My opinion is from what I saw , based on 1 seasons batting , that he was the best opening batsman Ive ever seen
The best Test opener of all time , I cant answer that
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Gingernuts wrote:robranisgod wrote: I didn't think his keeping was ever anything special. Certainly his sloppiness behind the stumps cost Australia more than one test. The test against India 5 years ago in Adelaide 5 years ago is one the comes to mind where he missed a couple of regulation catches and Australia failed on the last day to dismiss India. He is about the cleanest hitter of the ball that I have ever seen, but I can't agree with you about his keeping, to me it was never any more than average.
His batting saved Australia on many occasions, and put Australia in commanding positions in countless tests. Yes his keeping let him down on occasions, particularly late in his career, but he is way ahead on net result IMO.
No doubt of that.
robranisgod- Join date : 2012-05-22
Posts : 441
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
One thing that puzzles me a bit is that we just don't seem to rate Jacques Kallis when it comes to this sort of selection. He is clearly one of the two greatest batting allrounders, yet he is never mentioned in these sorts of teams. And I am not criticising any selectors either. I wouldn't have chosen him in my first or second XIs either. I wonder why we underrate him. Anyone got any ideas?
robranisgod- Join date : 2012-05-22
Posts : 441
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Perhaps Jaques is not exciting enough ?
He rarely tears the opposition apart with his batting
His bowling is at times can be explosive , but generally medium fast
But he deserves more recognition for his outstanding career
Is possibly the second best batting allrounder Ive seen , after Sir Garfield Sobers
He rarely tears the opposition apart with his batting
His bowling is at times can be explosive , but generally medium fast
But he deserves more recognition for his outstanding career
Is possibly the second best batting allrounder Ive seen , after Sir Garfield Sobers
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
How do his statistics compare to Sobers'?
FOOTYfollower- Join date : 2012-01-30
Posts : 311
Location : Somewhere watching the footy
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Sir Garfield Sobers
Batting
8032 runs
57.78 ave
26 hundreds
strike rate ?
Bowling
235 wickets
34.03 average
91.91 strike rate
2.22 economy
Jaques Kallis
Batting
12858 runs
57.14 average
44 hundreds
45.93 strike rate
Bowling
281 wickets
32.55 average
68.95 strike rate
2.83 economy
Stats can be deceptive at times
The reason being Sobers was more of a match winner , and often could murder bowling attacks , and set up wins with the bat
His bowling was incredibly versatile
He could open the bowling, bowl as a change bowler, or become a spin bowler
Looking at those stats you could think Kallis was the better cricketer
Kallis, as Robranisgod has posted, should be at least talked about when it comes to the best of batting allrounders off all time
Batting
8032 runs
57.78 ave
26 hundreds
strike rate ?
Bowling
235 wickets
34.03 average
91.91 strike rate
2.22 economy
Jaques Kallis
Batting
12858 runs
57.14 average
44 hundreds
45.93 strike rate
Bowling
281 wickets
32.55 average
68.95 strike rate
2.83 economy
Stats can be deceptive at times
The reason being Sobers was more of a match winner , and often could murder bowling attacks , and set up wins with the bat
His bowling was incredibly versatile
He could open the bowling, bowl as a change bowler, or become a spin bowler
Looking at those stats you could think Kallis was the better cricketer
Kallis, as Robranisgod has posted, should be at least talked about when it comes to the best of batting allrounders off all time
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
I can't think of any other batting allrounders who get close to Sobers and Kallis. Just about every other great allrounder has been primarily a bowler. Can anyone think of the next best batting allrounder. To me players like Steve Waugh and Bob Simpson were batsmen who could bowl but not quite allrounders. I am excluding the wicketkeeper/batsman from this discussion.
robranisgod- Join date : 2012-05-22
Posts : 441
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
The only way to get close to Sobers or Kallis would be to think of excellent batsmen who bowled more than occasionally
Some examples
Doug Walters
5357 runs @48.26
49 wickets @29.08
Greg Chappell
7110 runs @53.86
47 wickets @ 40.70
Bob Simpson
4869 runs @46.81
71 wickets @42.26
Allan Border
11174 runs @50.56
39 wickets @39.10
Steve Waugh
10927 runs @51.06
92 wickets @37.44
Bob Cowper
2061 runs @46.84
36 wickets @31.63
All these players played in the top order as batsman , finished with good batting averages , and were more than useful bowlers
Bob Cowper
Is rarely mentioned as a great
Bob Cowper , a triple centurion in Test Cricket, was a very good left handed Victorian batsman
The added bonus was he was a good off break bowler
Unfortunately for Australian cricket , he retired in his late twenties for employment reasons
Doug Walters
Douggie Walters is mostly remembered for his exciting batting
Has been mentioned as a change bowler , who had the ability to be a partnership breaker
Doug ends up with a bowling average of less than 30, so his bowling may deserve more credit
He bowled medium pacers, probably about 125 kms
Some examples
Doug Walters
5357 runs @48.26
49 wickets @29.08
Greg Chappell
7110 runs @53.86
47 wickets @ 40.70
Bob Simpson
4869 runs @46.81
71 wickets @42.26
Allan Border
11174 runs @50.56
39 wickets @39.10
Steve Waugh
10927 runs @51.06
92 wickets @37.44
Bob Cowper
2061 runs @46.84
36 wickets @31.63
All these players played in the top order as batsman , finished with good batting averages , and were more than useful bowlers
Bob Cowper
Is rarely mentioned as a great
Bob Cowper , a triple centurion in Test Cricket, was a very good left handed Victorian batsman
The added bonus was he was a good off break bowler
Unfortunately for Australian cricket , he retired in his late twenties for employment reasons
Doug Walters
Douggie Walters is mostly remembered for his exciting batting
Has been mentioned as a change bowler , who had the ability to be a partnership breaker
Doug ends up with a bowling average of less than 30, so his bowling may deserve more credit
He bowled medium pacers, probably about 125 kms
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
robranisgod wrote:I can't think of any other batting allrounders who get close to Sobers and Kallis. Just about every other great allrounder has been primarily a bowler. Can anyone think of the next best batting allrounder. To me players like Steve Waugh and Bob Simpson were batsmen who could bowl but not quite allrounders. I am excluding the wicketkeeper/batsman from this discussion.
You were too young to remember this player
Walter Hammond
Batting
7249 runs
58.45 average
22 hundreds
336 not out highest score
Bowling
83 wickets
37.80 average
96.01 strike rate
2.36 economy
From what Ive read , Walter is considered the best or near best English batsman of all time
Arguably Jack Hobbs is the best with Walter Hammond
His bowling average is highish , but he did bowl a lot of his career against Australian batsman , including Sir Donald Bradman
Walter ended up scoring 167 first class hundreds , which is about the 3rd highest amount of tons by any player
It is said no one has played better offside shots than Walter Hammond
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Scrappy wrote:robranisgod wrote:I can't think of any other batting allrounders who get close to Sobers and Kallis. Just about every other great allrounder has been primarily a bowler. Can anyone think of the next best batting allrounder. To me players like Steve Waugh and Bob Simpson were batsmen who could bowl but not quite allrounders. I am excluding the wicketkeeper/batsman from this discussion.
You were too young to remember this player
Walter Hammond
Batting
7249 runs
58.45 average
22 hundreds
336 not out highest score
Bowling
83 wickets
37.80 average
96.01 strike rate
2.36 economy
From what Ive read , Walter is considered the best or near best English batsman of all time
Arguably Jack Hobbs is the best with Walter Hammond
His bowling average is highish , but he did bowl a lot of his career against Australian batsman , including Sir Donald Bradman
Walter ended up scoring 167 first class hundreds , which is about the 3rd highest amount of tons by any player
It is said no one has played better offside shots than Walter Hammond
Hammond has been chosen in the second XI probably in front of Kallis. Once again I think of Hammond as a better player than Kallis, even though figures don't suggest it.
I agree that Hobbs and Hammond are probably considered England's greatest ever players although I think that Sutcliffe may have had a better batting average and a little surprisingly perhaps Ken Barrington's figures would be rather close too. Once again style probably comes into most of our judgements.
robranisgod- Join date : 2012-05-22
Posts : 441
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
This is Jeff Cheshires Top 10 allrounders list
The list was complied in January , 2012
1 Gary Sobers
2 Jaques Kallis
3 Imran Khan
4 Keith Miller
5 Richard Hadlee
6 Ian Botham
7 Shaun Pollock
8 Kapil Dev
9 Tony Greig
10 Andrew Flintoff
This guy agrees with myself and Robranisgod, and given Jaques Kallis a lofty rating
Interestingly he has not included Wasim Akram in his top 10 allrounders though
The list was complied in January , 2012
1 Gary Sobers
2 Jaques Kallis
3 Imran Khan
4 Keith Miller
5 Richard Hadlee
6 Ian Botham
7 Shaun Pollock
8 Kapil Dev
9 Tony Greig
10 Andrew Flintoff
This guy agrees with myself and Robranisgod, and given Jaques Kallis a lofty rating
Interestingly he has not included Wasim Akram in his top 10 allrounders though
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
What about this allrounder
Mike Proctor
Batting
226 runs @25.11
53.42 strike rate
Bowling
41 wickets @15.02
36.92 strike rate
2.44 economy rate
I wonder how good this South African allrounder may have been ?
Look at those astonishing bowling stats, albiet in an enforced very brief Test career
Mike had a most unusual bowling action , a slight similarity to Max Walkers , but bowled with a good deal more pace
When I think of how good Barry Richards and Mike Proctor could have been as Test Cricketers, I think the answer is a part hide
Mike Proctor
Batting
226 runs @25.11
53.42 strike rate
Bowling
41 wickets @15.02
36.92 strike rate
2.44 economy rate
I wonder how good this South African allrounder may have been ?
Look at those astonishing bowling stats, albiet in an enforced very brief Test career
Mike had a most unusual bowling action , a slight similarity to Max Walkers , but bowled with a good deal more pace
When I think of how good Barry Richards and Mike Proctor could have been as Test Cricketers, I think the answer is a part hide
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Tony Greig before Flintoff? Intersting. Perhaps because I didn't see much of Greig and the only real footage I've seen is him being hit for 5 boundaries in an over by David Hookes. No doubt he was decent, I guess I probably just don't know enough about his career.
I wonder where Chris Cairns might rank? Perhaps 11-20 somewhere.
I wonder where Chris Cairns might rank? Perhaps 11-20 somewhere.
FOOTYfollower- Join date : 2012-01-30
Posts : 311
Location : Somewhere watching the footy
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
FOOTYfollower wrote:Tony Greig before Flintoff? Intersting. Perhaps because I didn't see much of Greig and the only real footage I've seen is him being hit for 5 boundaries in an over by David Hookes. No doubt he was decent, I guess I probably just don't know enough about his career.
I wonder where Chris Cairns might rank? Perhaps 11-20 somewhere.
Im going for Freddy Flintoff as the better 'allrounder'
Batsman, Bowler, Boxer
Andrew Freddy Flintoff has Just become a Heavyweight Boxer , winning his debut fight against Richard Dawson on points
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Scrappy wrote:Perhaps Jaques is not exciting enough ?
He rarely tears the opposition apart with his batting
His bowling is at times can be explosive , but generally medium fast
But he deserves more recognition for his outstanding career
Is possibly the second best batting allrounder Ive seen , after Sir Garfield Sobers
Ahem
The fastest 50 in Test Cricket is by Jaques Kallis
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Well Scrappy occasionally we get one wrong. That is allowed from time to time.
Chambo Off To Work We Go- Join date : 2012-02-03
Posts : 3228
My club :
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
the bowler and allrounder would be
DK Lillee
Joel Garner
Richard Hadlee (almost considered an allrounder)
Warne
and throw in Imram Khan (greatest allrounder by an absolute mile)
DK Lillee
Joel Garner
Richard Hadlee (almost considered an allrounder)
Warne
and throw in Imram Khan (greatest allrounder by an absolute mile)
burgerking- Join date : 2011-12-26
Posts : 100
Location : Brisbane
My club :
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Scrappy wrote:This is Jeff Cheshires Top 10 allrounders list
The list was complied in January , 2012
1 Gary Sobers
2 Jaques Kallis
3 Imran Khan
4 Keith Miller
5 Richard Hadlee
6 Ian Botham
7 Shaun Pollock
8 Kapil Dev
9 Tony Greig
10 Andrew Flintoff
This guy agrees with myself and Robranisgod, and given Jaques Kallis a lofty rating
Interestingly he has not included Wasim Akram in his top 10 allrounders though
Would Hadlee be considered as a true all rounder?
I wouldn't have him in this list.
Akram probably has a place in this list before Hadlee and Greig in my view.
Chambo Off To Work We Go- Join date : 2012-02-03
Posts : 3228
My club :
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Don Bradmans best team 1945-1975
Please note the team he selected was made in 1975
Simpson
Morris
Bradman
Harvey
I Chappell
G Chappell
Miller
Benaud
Davidson
Lindwall
Tallon
Hassett 12th man
Please note the team he selected was made in 1975
Simpson
Morris
Bradman
Harvey
I Chappell
G Chappell
Miller
Benaud
Davidson
Lindwall
Tallon
Hassett 12th man
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Scrappy wrote:Don Bradmans best team 1945-1975
Please note the team he selected was made in 1975
Simpson
Morris
Bradman
Harvey
I Chappell
G Chappell
Miller
Benaud
Davidson
Lindwall
Tallon
Hassett 12th man
Not a bad batting line up. Tallon made a test 90 and he is number 11. As said before Lindwall was just about an all rounder and he is batting 10.
I am glad that Bradman chose Simpson instead of Lawry, it has been a source of annoyance to me that certain judges have elevated Lawry above Simpson, Simpson was the better player.
Last edited by robranisgod on Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
robranisgod- Join date : 2012-05-22
Posts : 441
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Agree, rig.
Good to see Davidson in that team - a much under-rated allrounder, IMO.
Good to see Davidson in that team - a much under-rated allrounder, IMO.
Lee- Join date : 2011-12-05
Posts : 7517
Location : Talking footy
My club :
Re: ESPN Cricinfo's World Eleven
Fred Truemans list of best fast bowlers
This was done after he retired up to 1990
1 Lillie
2 Holding
3 Marshall
4 Garner
5 Roberts
6 Snow
7 Thomson
8 Willis
In 1960 they had the speed equipment testing who the quickest was
The results
93 mph Hall
92 mph Trueman
80s mph Staham and Loader
70s mph Davidson
Fred , as you would expect , has mentioned he was 33 years old
He also added if he was tested when he was aged mid twenties , he would have been over 100 mph !
Just for the record
Harold Larwood was clocked at 96 mph , by an unknown technology
Godfrey Evans the English keeper has stated that Frank Typhoon Tyson was quicker than Fred Trueman
Freds response was that Frank was quicker for a about 3 years but not over a period of time
This was done after he retired up to 1990
1 Lillie
2 Holding
3 Marshall
4 Garner
5 Roberts
6 Snow
7 Thomson
8 Willis
In 1960 they had the speed equipment testing who the quickest was
The results
93 mph Hall
92 mph Trueman
80s mph Staham and Loader
70s mph Davidson
Fred , as you would expect , has mentioned he was 33 years old
He also added if he was tested when he was aged mid twenties , he would have been over 100 mph !
Just for the record
Harold Larwood was clocked at 96 mph , by an unknown technology
Godfrey Evans the English keeper has stated that Frank Typhoon Tyson was quicker than Fred Trueman
Freds response was that Frank was quicker for a about 3 years but not over a period of time
Scrappy- Join date : 2012-05-15
Posts : 3911
Page 2 of 3 • 1, 2, 3
Similar topics
» T20 World Cup
» T20 world cup
» A.B de Villiers amazing world record
» 2015 O.D.I World Cup
» Kabaddi World Cup
» T20 world cup
» A.B de Villiers amazing world record
» 2015 O.D.I World Cup
» Kabaddi World Cup
Page 2 of 3
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
|
|